01:05:55 pci8255 tested on W2K with the board and chip I thought might be damaged... no problems :) now to test on Linux via Hal 01:09:08 with or without pull-ups/pull-downs? 01:12:11 with pull downs & it works :) sweet 01:12:22 using jeplers 8255.hal 01:12:34 i gots lotsa i/o now buddy 01:12:51 ok, well that's good to know :) 01:15:24 me happy :) jepler's driver is good, hdwr runs, blinky lights for everyone barkeep, on me! 01:15:48 that should make jepler happy 01:15:50 or angry :) 01:16:09 troubleshooting bad hardware with software is difficult 01:17:23 his may be ok too, this is the board & chip I thought was bad, and the 'bad' chip is the port I'm testing. He can have 72 i/o for a few resistors, i hope. 01:17:43 he worked pretty hard on it, thx jepler 01:18:37 hi tomp2 01:18:41 thanks also for your help 01:18:59 I updated my old blog entry about the futurlec 8255 with a note about pull-down resistors. http://emergent.unpy.net/index.cgi/01165433819 01:19:16 i couldnt write it, just got a bit lucky, hope your board is ok, futurlec is the cheap place for 8255's 01:20:26 any hints on serial sniffing? i got 2 things i'd like to run under linux, a serial ctrld EDM generator and a serial controlled cnc ( the user i/f sux ) 01:22:02 I'd be tempted to assemble cables similar to the ones shown at http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/RS-232-spy-monitor.html and use some cheap serial-usb dongles if I didn't have a machine old enough to have two real serial ports 01:22:14 (assuming you want to sniff full duplex) 01:22:52 thx, dunno what i'll see but sure its some simple pkts 01:22:53 (I can't vouch for those pinouts but the general idea seems sound and it should be easy to verify) 01:23:19 as for linux-specific software to record the conversations .. I dunno about a good choice for that 01:23:38 cool, its a tap 01:23:41 yeah basically 01:26:57 I think it would not be too hard to capture two serial streams and write them out with linux, though I don't see how to be 100% sure you log them in the right order if they happen at "about the same time" 01:27:54 there was a great program called microtap (for DOS) 01:27:59 may still be around 01:28:24 also viewcomm, though that one was ported to Windows and doesn't work as well any more (1ms timestamp resolution) 01:28:59 seems microtap is still around -- http://www.paladinsoftware.com/ 01:29:48 it's not clear what the demo version will do 01:29:53 heh - hard to tell 01:30:10 they also made a Y cable for the actual tapping 01:30:21 but $349 seems a bit steep for that package these days 01:30:31 I bet a dolla tomp is up to wiring the cable 01:30:39 seems likely :) 01:31:53 http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/General/comp.arch.embedded/2004-05/0426.html 01:31:58 * jepler contemplates saying that for $349 he'll write a serial logging HAL component 01:32:04 heh 01:32:41 no user interface, but something that you can hook to halsampler 01:32:50 yeah, for $349 I'll do it. 01:33:04 I'll give you $3.49 01:33:16 or a taco 01:40:06 huh: http://sourceforge.net/projects/rt-com/ 01:47:35 linux serial snooper (kde) http://serlook.sunsite.dk/ 01:47:44 ooh rt serial , nice 01:49:51 http://rt-com.sourceforge.net/ 01:50:12 that's the one 01:50:24 I remember seeing that at some point - the code looks familiar 02:30:03 snooper - Captures communication between two external serial devices 02:31:53 I know I've snooped serial with some piece of Free software. it might have been this but I'm not sure. 02:32:29 my laptop has a serial port and I used a usb-serial thingy for the second port 02:52:36 i found LinuxSPA, slsnif, and serial_sniffer for linux, making the full duplex cable jepler found, trying slsnif 02:58:18 gnite 02:58:20 tomp2 has left #emc-devel 03:18:28 EMC: 03jmelson 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/univpwm/univpwm_io.hal: fix index-enable in commented-out hal 03:19:54 EMC: 03jmelson 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/univstep/univstep_io.hal: fix index-enable in commented-out hal 03:21:54 EMC: 03jmelson 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/ppmc/ppmc_io.hal: fix index-enable in commented-out hal 04:01:13 LawrenceG has quit 14:14:08 * jepler is trying to figure out how to integrate emc2's html documentation into ubuntu desktop's "help" 14:14:21 as with all gnome things, it's somewhere between opaque and opaque 14:15:36 there is definitely an inverse correlation between user friendliness and programmer friendliness 14:16:39 oh don't say anything that will make me comment on gnome "usability". 14:17:26 I'm referring to the usability that makes Ubuntu so popular with former windows users 14:41:06 Roguish has joined #emc-devel 14:43:15 EMC: 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/halcmd_commands.c: 14:43:15 EMC: * point user at dmesg when loadrt fails (not on sim 14:43:15 EMC: * get rid of blocks warning 14:43:52 EMC: 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/Makefile: blocks is dead 14:45:22 tomp2 has joined #emc-devel 14:56:31 dave_1 has joined #emc-devel 14:57:27 dave_1 has quit 15:08:22 skunkworks has joined #emc-devel 15:54:54 SWPLinux has joined #emc-devel 15:58:38 LawrenceG has joined #emc-devel 16:10:56 * jepler gives up on integrating with gnome help 16:12:03 heh 16:12:44 but all you need to do is - err - make some files of some sort and put them somewhere and tell some program about it and ... and ... 16:15:22 jepler: question about hal_input 16:15:47 I'm messing with the uinput mechanism, and wanted to check enumeration using hal_input 16:16:11 but for some reason, I can't open the /dev/input/uinput device 16:16:32 I see the device node, and it has the same permissions as all the other input devices (which have worked in the past) 16:18:35 hmmm. now those don't work either. I guess I should see what I screwed up 16:19:30 should hal_input work with a sim build? 16:22:33 SWPLinux: yes 16:22:49 ok - it works when I use a number, but I can't name a device node direcly 16:23:02 (and I'm not sure I'm supposed to be able to anyway) 16:24:53 ok, I need root permissions to load at al 16:25:26 l 16:29:44 /dev paths are not supported 16:29:54 apparently :) 16:30:01 you should be able to run it as non-root according to the permissions on the file in /dev it needs 16:30:07 but I still need to be root to use a numbered /dev/input/eventN 16:30:11 sure 16:30:31 I'm looking through /etc/udev now to find what to change 16:35:39 ah there's a typo in the rule proposed in the manpage 16:35:53 the hal_input manpage? 16:35:56 yes 16:36:30 capital MODE? 16:36:43 no 16:37:25 hmmm, isn't this 0660 permissions: 16:37:33 crw-rw---- 1 root root 10, 223 2008-05-10 12:13 uinput 16:37:52 but your group does not include root 16:37:55 EMC: 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/man/man1/hal_input.1: typo: = should have been == 16:37:56 it does include "plugdev" 16:38:04 ah 16:39:07 this does work for uinput as well as regular input devices -- I just happen to have a uinput device handy 16:39:10 halcmd: loadusr hal_input +Wiimote 16:39:14 heh 16:39:33 now here's something to demo at cnc workshop :-P 16:39:34 are you serious? 16:40:02 I bought one of those dual-stick USB controllers Jymmmm was talking about - they're pretty cool 16:40:05 and $20 16:40:13 about demong it? no. that a wii remote works as a linux input device, and with hal_input? yes. 16:40:19 s/demong/demoing/ 16:40:26 the latter is what I was asking about 16:40:33 thats pretty cool 16:40:47 I gather uinput is also used for force feedback 16:41:26 the uinput mechanism is very interesting actually - userspace programs can stuff input events into the input subsystem 16:42:10 I just tested segfaults and kills of the userspace driver, and in every case, the kernel cleaned up nicely 16:42:18 that's promising 16:42:49 I may make the inverse of hal_input - something that lets you turn HAL stuff into input events X can use 16:42:54 (or anything else) 16:43:53 for fun, or because you see an application for it? 16:44:01 mostly for fu 16:44:02 n 16:44:25 it could be useful as well, except that HAL can't tell what program has focus 16:44:37 it would be a more elegant replacement for those times when someone solders wires to a keyboard to connect a bigger/more rugged/etc switch and make it generate a keystroke 16:44:49 that's true 16:45:22 as long as AXIS (or some other known UI) is running, you can have buttons do the equivalent keyboard/mouse actions 16:45:55 oh, I just thought of an off the wall application 16:46:01 uh-oh 16:46:02 :) 16:46:05 (probably easier tools for it exist tho) 16:46:20 testing some gui app - use streamer or CL or whatever to generate the commands 16:47:01 or for testing - you could simulate mouse motion also 16:47:10 demo mode :) 16:47:35 could sampler be used to capture user actions, and streamer to play them back? 16:48:17 hal_input on the capture side, hal_uinput on the playback side 16:48:27 hal_output_to_input ... 16:48:30 hmmm 16:48:43 keyboard remapping ;-) 16:48:50 heh - evil ;) 16:49:01 here's the qwerty->dvorak HAL file ;) 16:49:20 mouse motion -> scale block -> GUI 16:49:31 and the scale is a random number that changes ever 10 seconds 16:49:36 I need a bigger desk! 16:49:44 I need a smaller desk! 16:50:00 a _signed_ random number 16:50:08 I need a drink! 16:56:13 actually, I think I'll write that component right now. pyvcp+hal_(stuff things into uinput) is a good way of seeing how the system deals with generated events 16:56:34 or just halcmd 16:57:33 ah yes, you can make the pyvcp input that turns itself off 16:57:50 heh 16:58:09 more specifically, I can set a bit (which generates a key down event), and see if the key repeats 16:58:19 and what happens when I press another key 16:58:21 etc. 17:01:14 does anybody remember if the Mazak is 240 or 480V? 17:01:32 though it isn't useful as a generic component, unless there's some sort of big ini file (similar problem to pyvcp and modbus) 17:01:35 I don't recall 17:01:46 I know there's 480 in that corner though 17:02:03 I'm replying to Ed who wants 240 3ph 17:03:08 hmmm. a 3-ph transformer might not be too available 17:03:33 I'd bet there's 240, even if the Mazak is 480 17:04:30 oh, now that's an interesting toolsetter approach 17:04:48 I'd always seen them as very precise switches or contact sensors 17:05:03 the indicator? 17:05:04 but you can also stick an encoder with index in there, and trip when you hit the index 17:05:06 yeah 17:05:17 only problem with that is that it takes human intervention 17:05:20 sort of an electronic version 17:05:22 (or indicator hacking) 17:05:32 there are indicators that can speak serial 17:05:32 'm thinking of an automatic version that should be more precise than a switch 17:06:03 plunger with encoder (linear or on a screw), index mark indicates "0" 17:06:19 about the same as an optical switch, I guess 17:06:29 screw won't work well because most don't back drive well 17:06:40 gotta have balls ;) 17:06:41 The Mazak is cord connected. I don't think I'd do that with 480. 17:07:03 yeah, I recall the twist lock 17:07:19 if it's 240, Ed could plug in there 17:07:24 we won't be using it constantly 17:07:34 ISTR there were two plugs anyway 17:07:50 rayh: didn't realize you were here 17:07:54 lets talk about power 17:07:56 Sure. There are several 240 outlets along that south? wall. 17:08:05 Okay. 17:08:21 two years ago you rigged the transformers cause we were over in the other building 17:08:35 Yes. 17:08:38 last year we were in front of the mazak (moved from the previous year) 17:08:46 and we used the limited 120V outlets 17:08:58 had a blackout when Aram plugged in his coffeepot ;-) 17:09:02 heh 17:09:04 I've got at least 3 three phase control transformers. 17:09:09 and mine was off at the time :) 17:09:26 I was just looking at this; http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=80-109-052&searchtable=2&sortExpression=wbprice&SortASC=Yes&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0 17:09:30 We could hide under boxes like we did 2 years ago. 17:09:37 3KVA 480 OR 240 TO 120 17:10:05 did you look at it in person? 17:10:10 no 17:10:21 Price is certainly right. 17:10:33 the specs don't say whether you get selectable 240/120 out - it could be a 2:1 17:10:34 If it's close enough to someone to pick up. 17:10:43 its local for me 17:10:52 Most all of these have a center tapped secondary. 17:10:53 they are open one sat a month, and that is next week 17:11:05 either that or reconfigurable primaries 17:11:29 The primary selects 240 or 480 17:11:33 right 17:11:34 right 17:11:40 and the secondary is 110 and 220 17:11:44 oh, I see - you mean it can make 120/240 split phase 17:11:51 Yes 17:11:53 eek 17:11:58 they have two of those at the same price 17:12:14 also a 1kva 17:12:22 SWPLinux: eek? 17:12:23 why? 17:12:30 give a 1kva to Aram for his coffee pot ;) 17:12:38 There you go. 17:12:53 they have craploads (as I continue to scroll down the list) 17:12:56 I can make up the plugs for outlets. 17:12:57 with the CT as "ground", it should be OK. just thinking back to the days of diffent circuits frying computers and printers and such 17:13:04 different 17:13:20 ground the center tap is standard - then its just like residential power 17:13:24 yep 17:13:43 2 years ago I did ground that setup to the wireway so it should have been good. 17:13:48 nice thing about the enclosed ones is safety 17:13:56 I guess most of those old problems were probably due to swapped hot/neutral 17:13:59 Yes. Mine are all open. 17:14:00 I think you grounded it after swp got a tingle 17:14:07 heh 17:14:08 yep 17:14:19 I could see the light in his eyes. 17:14:24 actually, the ground leg on the plug was NFG 17:14:36 oh, thats right 17:14:36 or the outlet - don't recall 17:14:53 then we grounded it to the conduit :) 17:14:56 it was plugged in, but we ran a green wire around the plug 17:15:15 At 3kw I should make a fuse panel or feed a little breaker setup. 17:15:21 I could easily do that as well. 17:15:40 I'd be happy to buy and bring the transformer 17:15:40 Yep I remember, looped across a couple of machines. 17:15:49 and the lights 17:15:51 Okay. 17:16:14 hmm, I wonder what the output volts is on this: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=12-273-178&searchtable=2&sortExpression=wbprice&SortASC=Yes&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0 17:16:28 (thinking of making 240 from 480 - although it sounds like we won't need that) 17:16:33 that's a beauty 17:17:07 Looks like it was from an HES lathe. 17:17:25 Let me run out to the shop and see how the 110 side is setup. 17:17:26 looks like it was from a clean room 17:17:48 I wonder what this is: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=42-452-381&searchtable=2&sortExpression=wbprice&SortASC=Yes&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0 17:18:18 .54kva - not too useful :) 17:18:38 its something special - 120V in, and screw terminals out 17:18:52 and designed to be portable 17:19:04 resistance welding? carbon torch? 17:19:24 hmm, plugs built in: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=42-486-260&searchtable=2&sortExpression=wbprice&SortASC=Yes&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0 17:20:15 the extra number in that other one was 1/50-60/120, so it may have to do with euro/US conversion 17:20:36 nah - that means 1 phase, 50 or 60 hz, 120V 17:20:50 true - I keep orgetting about phases :) 17:20:53 forgetting 17:21:14 roltek has joined #emc-devel 17:21:42 ah, I bet its for an older version of this: http://www.idealindustries.com/products/wire_processing/bench_machines/stp_stripping_system.jsp 17:22:01 The 3 phase ones I've got in the shop don't have a center tap. 17:22:27 rayh: did you see the one that has a quad box already attached for $39? 17:22:29 If this one does we would want to know if it's delta or wye connected. 17:22:29 hi ray how you doing 17:22:44 I didn't. 17:22:55 http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=42-486-260&searchtable=2&sortExpression=wbprice&SortASC=Yes&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0 17:23:03 I do have a 3 kva filter setup out there. 17:23:05 no protection tho 17:23:49 That would work for the coffee maker. 17:23:58 the general rule at HGR is offer 75 to 80% of their asking price and they'll probably take it 17:24:45 Something like that would easily work for us. If we used power bars, they have an overload. 17:25:10 need power strips? 17:25:10 http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=21-134-220&searchtable=2&sortExpression=wbprice&SortASC=Yes&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0 17:25:20 Not that it would be approved for this use. 17:25:47 Get the whole tub of those. 17:26:03 serious? (I'd be happy to if you really want them) 17:26:13 steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings 17:26:35 probably get them for $1.50 each if buying the tub 17:26:42 I had a 50kva 3 phase available to me. 17:26:44 (assuming they're still there next week) 17:27:15 I'd build the whole thing into the shop for us but I wonder how much longer we will have access to it. 17:27:24 yeah 17:27:33 plus, 50 kva is a bit heavy to haul 17:27:35 We could certainly use a couple dozen of those. 17:27:55 I've got a truck I'm bringing this year to haul some stuff home. 17:28:04 Roland and I have a side deal going. 17:28:15 from my truck to yours.... 17:28:30 There you go. Another side deal. 17:28:48 http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=90-126-076&searchtable=2&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0 17:29:16 I will bring this 3 kva setup. It has a really nice filter -- caps and inductance. 17:29:29 SWPLinux: nice 17:29:43 that should work :) 17:29:50 probably intended for 120Y/208 system 17:30:19 the main problem I see now isn't lack of power, its lack of extension cords 17:30:22 looks like space for 6 breakers. Get it. 17:30:44 I have half a dozen cords, 2 of which are 75' 12-ga outdoor cords 17:31:03 plus those 4' 8 or 10-outlet strips 17:31:24 (2 of those) 17:31:25 I'll bring what I've got also. We could get a few more if we need at that farm store near town. 17:32:24 Let's put the developer area on my filtered box and not make any extra receptacles available. 17:32:38 hmmm. looks like I should pack up so I can board the next plane. 17:32:40 see you later 17:32:54 SWPLinux has quit 17:32:59 We can put the "lab" on another separate transformer. 17:33:23 00:26:43 i was thinking people could ship stuff here ( got a dock ) and i could get a van for a small crew from ORD to Galesburg 00:26:46\ 17:33:40 rayh: I thought the lab was gonna be in one of the classrooms 17:33:47 Then the general area can be on a third. 17:34:08 I was hoping to keep it closer to the rest of us. 17:34:27 Perhaps around the wall where we had the developer stuff 2 years ago. 17:35:21 have you been to the shop in the last year? 17:35:27 (many things moved since 2 yrs ago) 17:35:31 No 17:35:32 skunkworks has quit 17:35:36 I've heard that. 17:36:03 Is that big G&L still in the middle? 17:36:24 the one G&L in the middle is still there 17:36:28 the other G&L is gone 17:36:32 Okay. 17:36:37 the mazak's are turned 90 degrees 17:36:53 so its G&L, Mazak 1, Mazak 2, compressor along the back wall 17:36:59 Mazak 2 is the emc one 17:37:09 k 17:37:21 the emc tables were set up between the garage door and the man-door in the corner of the building 17:37:32 and the big shear from the other building was between the tables and the garage door 17:37:40 k 17:37:52 the other building (other section really) where the shear was had bunches of picnic tables in it 17:39:20 I don't quite understand where the shear is now. 17:39:46 you know where the garage door is (the one that faces the G&L)? 17:39:46 tomp2 has left #emc-devel 17:39:58 Yea 17:40:10 is you are standing in the doorway facing in, the shear is to your right, perpendicular to the doorway 17:40:47 Oh. So the tables and mazak are kinda walled off by the shear. 17:40:55 the tables 17:41:04 take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5q1rVKYLTQ 17:41:08 k 17:41:23 table in the center of the image is facing the back of the shear 17:41:42 there is a fairly large aisle (6ft?) between the end of the shear and the left Mazak 17:42:14 Okay. 17:42:53 I have no idea if the layout is gonna be the same this year 17:43:07 I suspect no machines have moved, but the tables could be anywhere 17:43:35 so, double checking my HGR bookmarks 17:43:38 we want the power strips 17:43:52 Some anyway. 17:44:20 $50 worth? (between 25 and 50 depending on how well I negotiate) 17:44:22 http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=90-126-076&searchtable=2&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0 17:44:30 That if it's there. 17:44:35 yep, was just about to say "we want the panel thing" 17:45:05 The transformer with the dual duplex plugs 17:45:37 this one, right? http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=42-486-260&searchtable=2&sortExpression=wbprice&SortASC=Yes&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0 17:48:08 Yep. 17:48:22 If you need to share costs on these let me know. 17:49:05 same here 17:50:03 I was in for a $30 xfmr, now we're up to a $40 xfmr, a $30 panel, and ? of power strips - if its gonna stay at the workshop I'll go to say $50 total 17:50:19 hell, we can probably sell power strips for $2 each and make a few cents 17:50:46 I can pay for all of it on CC and we'll square up at the workshop 17:51:17 do we want a transformer without plugs to go with that panel? there are 3kva ones for $30 17:51:53 There you go. 17:52:00 that's a yea? 17:52:32 The one from 2 years ago should still be around there someplace. 17:52:36 ok, bookmarked this one: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=12-178-129&searchtable=2&sortExpression=wbprice&SortASC=Yes&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0 17:52:46 I'll bring an extra from here. 17:52:48 enclosed seems so much nicer 17:53:20 It does look nice. 17:53:21 now - how are we gonna feed them? do we need primary protection? 17:54:04 the 480 and 240 are all along the back wall - the class area in the other building is close - the tables in the Mazak area not so much 17:54:41 I'll bring some conduit and make a good run across there just for us. 17:55:04 Hi guys. Trying to skim and get lost trying to keep up. If you need SINGLE phase, I can bring a 3KVA 460 to 115/230 and possibly a 6 KVA 460 to 115/230. 17:55:32 we are talking single plase 17:55:40 Hey that 6kva would do a nice job feeding that breaker box. 17:56:41 If we added 3 breakers and separated the duplex plugs we could make 6 20 amp proper circuits. 17:57:37 6kva is gonna be pretty darned heavy 17:57:38 That should feed that entire area between the man door and the mazak and the shear. 17:57:55 Depends if it's potted in sand. 17:58:03 lol - last year we had one 20 amp circuit 17:58:17 3 would be wonderfull, 6 would be unheard of luxury 17:58:18 Well if I take a deep breath and it is already at the tailgate of the van, I can lift it. 17:58:23 I can use my filtered setup for the lab area. 17:58:34 awallin has joined #emc-devel 17:58:35 Not potted, dry type. 17:58:46 steve_stallings: ah, that makes a big difference 17:58:49 Oh to be young 17:58:59 Oh to stay young... 17:59:18 all things relative, 56 is young? 17:59:19 Gotta run. 17:59:30 Yep by comparison. 17:59:37 at the shop end, there are forklifts, and I can bring a couple 3 ft lifting straps 17:59:59 Naw, two guys and a hand cart are just fine. 18:00:28 I'll reconfirm later, but it sounds like the plan is now for me to get the panel thing, we'll hook it to steve's 6kva if available, if not to a 3kva from either steve or HGR 18:00:31 I do need to put power to it and make sure it is good. 18:00:42 ray will bring his own setup for the class area 18:00:55 and I might or might not get the 2kva with attached outlets 18:01:24 and I'll bring a pile of power strips 18:01:44 all of this assumes that stuff is still available next saturday - I'll let everybody know how it goes 18:01:49 OK, note - I plan to arrive Sunday afternoon and leave Sunday AM. 18:02:25 steve_stallings: is the transformer something that will go home with you, or a donation? (determines whether we wire it in with conduit or just temporary) 18:03:11 Needs to come back with me. It is the stepup to feed a 460 VFD from 230. 18:03:27 ah, ok 18:04:06