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00:23:28 <an0n__> * an0n__ sighs
00:23:31 <an0n__> I think I just broke a servo
00:23:34 <an0n__> :(
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00:24:52 <paul_c> How can you "break a servo" ??
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00:57:18 <jepler> Is anybody running emc in simulator mode on fedora core 2?  I'm having some trouble getting it to work despite some help from cradek.  I've never built emc before, except to run emcplot3d.
00:59:56 <paul_c> * paul_c has only installed fedora once - Just to see what it was like....
01:01:37 <jepler> the program builds and executing sim.run gets me the xemc interface
01:02:23 <jepler> but for instance if I jog to about y=2 then hit home, I get a message box that says "Axis 1 following error", and the same for the other axes
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01:04:27 <jepler> switching to mdi mode and executing commands (such as "g0 z1" or "G0 Z1" etc) does nothing but print errors in the terminal
01:04:31 <jepler> and running a program doesn't work either
01:04:51 <paul_c> what sort of errors ?
01:05:50 <jepler> trying to execute one of the files from programs/:
01:05:56 <jepler>     emcTaskPlanLine() returned 1
01:05:56 <jepler>     emcTaskPlanCommand() called. (line_number=1)
01:05:56 <jepler>     canterp: unrecognized canonical command
01:05:56 <jepler>     emcTaskPlanExecute(0) return 1
01:05:56 <jepler>     emcTaskPlanClose() called at emctaskmain.cc:1248
01:05:59 <jepler>     Issuing EMC_TASK_PLAN_SYNCH --   (+516,+12,    +0,)
01:07:06 <jepler> executing "g0 z1":
01:07:06 <jepler> Issuing EMC_TASK_PLAN_EXECUTE --         (+509,+268,    +4,g0\040z1,)
01:07:06 <jepler> canterp: unrecognized canonical command 
01:07:06 <jepler> emcTaskPlanExecute(g0 z1) returned 1
01:07:06 <jepler> emctaskmain.cc 2104: !ERROR! error executing command 509:EMC_TASK_PLAN_EXECUTE
01:07:42 <paul_c> have you done an update from cvs ?
01:08:04 <jepler> yes.  this is a fresh checkout from this morning of the CVS HEAD of rcslib and emc (not emc2)
01:09:36 <paul_c> OK - I recall seeing where these errors get produced....
01:10:35 <paul_c> but the canterp interface shouldn't be linked in...
01:11:39 <jepler> hm, I took a copy of cradek's sim.ini, and he's uncommented centerptask and commented minimilltask
01:13:06 <jepler> OK, I blew away sim.ini and checked it out again, and now I can "g0 x1 y1 z1" in mdi
01:13:47 <jepler> that also changed me from xemc to tkemc, I wonder which change mattered
01:14:21 <jepler> no, it works now in xemc.  
01:14:43 <jepler> I still get the "Axis N following error" if I jog to y=1 and then hit home
01:17:20 <paul_c> check your scales
01:17:20 <jepler> OK, great, everything I was interested in is now working.  I can run xemc and see the live plot in emcplot3d
01:17:38 <jepler> 3D_Chips.ngc is now plotting
01:18:46 <jepler> Is there somewhere I can look in the source tree for the simplest program that would monitor the state of the mill, just printing coordinates to stdout a few times per second?
01:19:38 <paul_c> don't remember seeing anything to do that..
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02:15:14 <jepler> Here's a screenshot of my Python + PyOpenGL rs274ngc viewer:  http://craie.unpy.net/~jepler/rs274py-gplot.png
02:15:25 <jepler> It has no dependency on emc
02:15:37 <jepler> just a little something I've been working on...
02:22:15 <paul_c> For emc2 ?
02:22:44 <jepler> I'm not sure what my goals are
02:23:14 <jepler> I admit I started serious work on it when cradek told me that emcplot3d didn't have a clear license.
02:24:19 <jepler> on the other hand, I doubt that python + pyopengl is something you want to make a requirement for emc2, and having a separate parser and interpreter for rs274 means the viewer may show different things from what emc will do
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02:25:35 <paul_c> It's notusing the same rs274 interp. code then ?
02:26:15 <jepler> nope, though I am using http://www.linuxcnc.org/handbook/RS274NGC_3/RS274NGC_3TOC.html as my documentation for the language, and my "canonical form" is also inspired by that document.
02:27:08 <jepler> sorry, I have to go.
02:27:18 <jepler> I'll read this scrollback later and may be back tomorrow
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05:56:30 <paul_c> Hi John
05:57:19 <logger_jmk> I'm not really here '-)
05:59:10 <paul_c> just testing the conection ;}
06:11:20 <an0n> * an0n broke a servo
06:11:30 <an0n> 500$ :(
06:11:50 <an0n> I feel like crying or somthing
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07:08:10 <asdfqwega> Don't feel bad an0n...I broke a $1000 laser - and a replacement cost $3000
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09:01:55 <paul_c> cradek:  http://craie.unpy.net/~jepler/rs274py-gplot.png
09:02:16 <cradek> hi paul, hi jepler
09:03:09 <paul_c> Evening cradek
09:05:34 <cradek> so what did I miss?
09:06:07 <paul_c> not a lot
09:06:23 <paul_c> It's been fairly quiet the last few days.
09:06:58 <cradek> I'm going to have to complain to my sysadmin about these network outages
09:07:17 <pfred1_> cradek yeah I bet they need a good laugh!
09:07:44 <cradek> pfred1_: the real irony here is that I'm the sysadmin
09:08:38 <paul_c> 10:30pm up 29 days, 8:37, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 
09:08:51 <cradek> paul_c: ?
09:09:41 <paul_c> 23:03:23 up 29 days,  8:32,  3 users,  load average: 1.49, 1.64, 1.58
09:09:59 <paul_c> My router & server stats ;}
09:10:19 <cradek> but only a windows user could be proud of that
09:10:27 <cradek> 5:00pm  up 1202 days,  6:46,  1 user,  load average: 0.12, 0.04, 0.02
09:10:54 <paul_c> I had to reboot 29 days ago after a power outage
09:11:01 <cradek> -> ls -ld /lost+found/
09:11:01 <cradek> drwxr-xr-x   2 root     root        8192 Oct 17  1991 /lost+found/
09:11:15 <cradek> I had to shut this machine off because the office moved 4 years ago
09:12:39 <cradek> so jepler showed off gplot
09:13:18 <paul_c> Looks good
09:13:29 <cradek> and it has a proper license
09:13:41 <paul_c> Now... If we could talk him in to committing to emc2 under GPL...
09:14:20 <paul_c> * paul_c thinks about the possibilities of using vtk
09:14:32 <cradek> I don't see any particular reason it should be in the same repository as emc
09:14:54 <cradek> they can read the same files
09:14:58 <cradek> they are useful together
09:15:09 <cradek> but they are unrelated otherwise (no code in common)
09:17:52 <cradek> what did he say about this when you asked him?
09:18:02 <paul_c> the main emc tree is a mess when it comes to working out what is GPL, Public Domain, non-free, and non-commercial
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09:21:45 <pfred1_> emc2 isn't GPL?
09:22:14 <paul_c> emc2 is, but emc(1) isn't
09:22:40 <pfred1_> emc1 is public domain?
09:25:00 <paul_c> Parts of the source code is
09:25:17 <paul_c> some is GPL
09:25:36 <paul_c> a couple of files are non-commercial
09:26:05 <paul_c> an a few of the sources in rcslib could be proprietory
09:26:28 <pfred1_> damn what a mess!
09:26:55 <pfred1_> what is "non-commercial" ?
09:27:09 <paul_c> not for profit
09:29:25 <pfred1_> paul_c so that mean you can't resell the code or cna't use it in any commercial application at all?
09:32:09 <cradek> pfred1_: at least one file's license is "free for non-commercial use"
09:32:14 <cradek> pfred1_: that's the whole license
09:32:25 <paul_c> emcplot3d is the file in question - And Yes, that is how I read the response to my query
09:45:44 <jepler> rs274py / gplot is GPL.
09:45:57 <jepler> if you want it in the emc2 tree you're certainly welcome to it
09:47:10 <paul_c> jepler: Do you have cvs access ?
09:47:39 <jepler> paul_c: Nope, I sure don't.
09:47:55 <cradek> jepler: look out, you're about to become a developer
09:47:58 <jepler> oh hell
09:48:06 <paul_c> Are you registered with SF ?
09:48:12 <jepler> Yes, I'm "jepler" there
09:49:10 <jepler> What's with the % at the top and bottom of .ngc files?  It's not mentioned in the reference I'm using (http://www.linuxcnc.org/handbook/RS274NGC_3/RS274NGC_3TOC.html)
09:49:51 <paul_c> It's an optiona marker for the start & end of a file
09:50:24 <jepler> So if there's a line with a lone "%" on it, followed by more lines, the following lines are ignored by the interpreter?
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09:51:55 <paul_c> jepler: Yu now have full write access to CVS
09:52:11 <cradek> jepler: sucker
09:52:59 <paul_c> I would suggest creating emc2/src/tools/3dplot (or pick your own name).
09:56:21 <cradek> jepler: now you need a machine
09:56:30 <jepler> Does the emc project buy me one?
09:56:43 <cradek> I think so - just arrange it with paul
09:57:07 <cradek> actually I think they're about to buy me a new one, and I can pass mine on to you
09:58:19 <jepler> let me know when that happens
09:58:26 <cradek> right
09:58:47 <paul_c> Sherline will do a discount for registered developers (if you ask them)
09:59:30 <cradek> paul_c: we really need bigger machines with servos for proper testing.
10:01:01 <paul_c> hexapods with 256 tool loaders
10:01:22 <pfred1_> sherlines are toys
10:01:28 <cradek> we need a grant or something don't we
10:01:54 <paul_c> You want to know what I mount my Sherline on ?
10:02:00 <cradek> pfred1_: you can make parts with them.  just smaller parts.
10:02:15 <cradek> pfred1_: mine's on a piece of oak
10:02:18 <cradek> err paul:
10:02:46 <paul_c> mine gets bolted to the table of a Bridgeport Interact II
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13:04:31 <jepler> yay, live plot display in my rs274ngc display app:  http://craie.unpy.net/~jepler/rs274py-gplot-live.png
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13:44:19 <cradek> jepler: wow
13:46:12 <cradek> jepler: check it in!
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13:53:41 <cradek> jepler: you need to come up with a name for it
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20:36:40 <paul_c> Up early John ?
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22:27:15 <Imperator_> Hi Paul, are you here ???
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22:29:50 <paul_c> Hi Imperator_ 
22:30:02 <Imperator_> Hi Paul how are you
22:31:09 <Imperator_> can you give me a short overview what was going on the last two weeks. In one sentence maybe
22:31:27 <paul_c> Not a lot...
22:32:18 <paul_c> Vreified the origins of emcplot3d and found it is subjuct to a non-commercial licence.
22:32:59 <Imperator_> so it has to be rewritten
22:33:05 <paul_c> On going discussions about where he emc2 files should go when installed
22:33:20 <Imperator_> jup
22:33:25 <Imperator_> I am thinking on making EMC able to drive a gantry axis, but i want to discuss the way to do that before 
22:33:50 <paul_c> jepler already has a python based replacement for emcplot3d
22:34:11 <Imperator_> phyton
22:34:22 <Imperator_> emc gets a multi language software
22:34:48 <Imperator_> tcl c c++ phyton
22:35:06 <paul_c> Python is usefull for rapid development of all sorts of stuff...
22:35:40 <Imperator_> ok
22:36:25 <Imperator_> do you want to say something about the gantry axis, or did i have to discuss that with john ?
22:36:38 <Imperator_> hope he is here today
22:37:37 <paul_c> You wanting to slave two drives ?
22:37:42 <Imperator_> jep
22:38:05 <Imperator_> i think this is not that big deal, but homing would be a problem
22:38:49 <paul_c> EMC will drive an XXYZ machine
22:38:54 <Imperator_> i have spoken with the guys of Heidenhaim, they said that not so much controllers are able to do that
22:39:00 <paul_c> without any changes to the code
22:39:06 <Imperator_> hm
22:39:34 <paul_c> but you are correct in your assumptions about homing
22:39:42 <paul_c> It would be a pain...
22:39:49 <Imperator_> but the XX Axis must move in any case exactly the same
22:39:56 <paul_c> yup
22:40:06 <Imperator_> free mode kills everything :-)
22:40:19 <paul_c> yes
22:41:22 <Imperator_> there is no work in prozess at the time, or ??
22:42:13 <Imperator_> or anything that could help
22:42:15 <les> les has joined #emc
22:42:24 <Imperator_> Hi les
22:42:31 <les> hello
22:42:47 <paul_c> Les would know about the problems of an XX axis
22:43:00 <paul_c> * paul_c passes the buck
22:43:17 <les> well, emc was/is not set up for it
22:43:47 <les> but I use a jackshaft to drive the big gantry on my machine
22:43:56 <les> twin ballscrews
22:44:12 <Imperator_> ok, i want to change that, or better i have to because my frends are starting to build such a machine at the moment and my tast is to get it work
22:44:25 <les> great
22:44:35 <Imperator_> :-)
22:44:52 <Imperator_> ok that is also our backup solutian
22:44:56 <les> the jackshaft transmissions I made were very expensive
22:45:01 <les> but work well
22:45:25 <les> one problem with electronic gearing....
22:45:53 <Imperator_> be get two linear encoders from heidenhain with 1700mm and 2200mm at ebay 
22:46:03 <les> is that the aparent mass that each end sees is constantly changing
22:46:47 <les> so with fixed tuning some racking forces can exist due to unequal following error
22:46:58 <Imperator_> i think that is very easy to solve with the HAL, i have only to conect two PID controller to one X output, but homing is the problem i think
22:47:03 <les> with very tight tuning it works fine though
22:48:11 <les> the best tandem systems would use feedforward based on the position of ANOTHER axis
22:48:37 <les> the one(s) carried by the tandem driven axis
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22:49:01 <les> but what about homing?
22:49:12 <les> what problem do you see there?
22:49:36 <Imperator_> i must home that two axis the same time !!!
22:49:45 <Imperator_> otherwise the machine is gone
22:49:53 <les> oh...
22:49:54 <les> hmmm
22:50:04 <Imperator_> and then i have to deside how to synchronise them
22:50:31 <les> well if one truly slaved off the other...
22:50:32 <Imperator_> because they are out of sync when i switch of the machine
22:50:55 <les> in other words commanded position of one=measured position of the other
22:51:10 <les> rather than just independent
22:51:50 <Imperator_> ithink commanded possision must be the input for both axis
22:52:18 <Imperator_> that is with HAL very easy
22:52:33 <Imperator_> but they must be synchronised at homing
22:52:34 <les> true slaving/electronic gearing needs this and emc does not do it as far as I know
22:52:44 <les> but right...very easy to code
22:53:14 <les> then home the master and the slave follows
22:53:50 <les> (with servos)
22:55:05 <les> There will always be a group delay between then due to integrators in the control laws but it coulsd be very small
22:55:12 <les> could
22:55:24 <Imperator_> hope so
22:55:42 <les> high servo updates...
22:55:52 <Imperator_> jep
22:56:12 <les> no big problems that I see...just has to be coded
22:57:00 <les> If a y is riding on a gantry x...
22:57:45 <les> the master and slave x will benefit from a zero order feedforward term based on the square of y position
22:58:12 <les> (due to moment of inertia of y)
22:58:27 <Imperator_> godd idea
22:58:33 <Imperator_> there are some smal problems that make the think interesting :-)
22:59:48 <les> in the general sense inverse kinematics need jacobians and stuff in the control laws
23:00:02 <les> but for an xxyz not very complicated
23:00:57 <les> I wish I could have figured out where to write this into emc1
23:01:15 <les> math is easy but figuring out the code was not
23:01:58 <les> so jackshaft, transmission, and mechanical pitch matching cams are what I had to use
23:02:21 <les> BIG $$$$$ that I would have preferred not to spend
23:03:18 <Imperator_> jup
23:05:21 <les> well I am going to make some breakfast...back in a while
23:05:32 <Imperator_> ok i will have a deep look into the code, see you
23:15:25 <les> ok...one last thing...if one does true slslaving for xxyz where racking error is made closed loop...
23:15:42 <les> he will have solved lathe threading as well.
23:35:29 <Imperator_> hm I'm not sure, because that is another thing
23:35:41 <Imperator_> but i don't know
23:40:24 <jepler> good morning golks
23:40:26 <jepler> er, folks
23:46:33 <Imperator_> hi jepler
23:47:06 <Imperator_> are you new here ?? I was two weeks away and i have never seen you before
23:48:03 <Imperator_> I am a guy from germany how wants to make emc able to use ganry axis
23:49:22 <jepler> I've been around a few times before, but not that much.
23:49:34 <jepler> I'm a friend of cradek, and sometimes I borrow his mill to do circuit boards
23:51:06 <jepler> I've done a little work improving emcplot3d, and most recently I've been writing a g-code interpreter and viewer in Python, which I believe Paul mentioned earlier.
23:52:25 <Imperator_> jep I have heard about it, is it in the CVS ??
23:52:34 <jepler> Nope, it's not in emc cvs
23:53:01 <jepler> There's a screenshot online: http://craie.unpy.net/~jepler/rs274py-gplot-live.png
23:53:33 <jepler> and my cvs can be viewed online: http://unpy.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/rs274py/
23:53:38 <Imperator_> hm, that looks nice
23:54:13 <jepler> It only supports a small subset of rs274ngc so far
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23:56:05 <Imperator_> very good, that are the tools that will make working with emc much easyer
23:58:14 <jepler> I was surprised that Paul immediately suggested checking it into emc2, it's so far from complete, duplicates the parser and interpreter, and is in a new language not used in emc before...